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	<title>Comments for The Idealist</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theidealist.us/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theidealist.us</link>
	<description>An exploration of how things, perhaps, ought to be.</description>
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		<title>Comment on FIxing Things by Yan Leychkis</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/08/24/fixing-things/comment-page-1/#comment-5146</link>
		<dc:creator>Yan Leychkis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 16:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=199#comment-5146</guid>
		<description>Hey Mikey,

I was searching the interwebs for your name and came across this blog. If you remember who I am give me a holler. I&#039;d like to know how you are doing.

Yan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Mikey,</p>
<p>I was searching the interwebs for your name and came across this blog. If you remember who I am give me a holler. I&#8217;d like to know how you are doing.</p>
<p>Yan</p>
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		<title>Comment on Property and Economics: The Foundation of Politics by mike</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/03/31/property-and-economics-the-foundation-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-3975</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=117#comment-3975</guid>
		<description>My libertarian leanings are more left also. I think Orwell is closest and really expresses best my concerns about the state better than anything on the right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My libertarian leanings are more left also. I think Orwell is closest and really expresses best my concerns about the state better than anything on the right.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Property: To What Extent? by mike</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/03/19/property-to-what-extent/comment-page-1/#comment-3974</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=87#comment-3974</guid>
		<description>Natural law is that law which exists in a state of nature, the natural consequences of our actions, the cause and effect with naturally govern everything, every decision, every individual. That&#039;s how I define it. 

And I agree that there is more equality under a Euro-style social democracy than in the U.S.

Regarding the Vanguard: I understand that it&#039;s supposed to disappear, but I don&#039;t see that happening. Do you have a good historical example of that or is it that we haven&#039;t given socialism enough time to get there?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Natural law is that law which exists in a state of nature, the natural consequences of our actions, the cause and effect with naturally govern everything, every decision, every individual. That&#8217;s how I define it. </p>
<p>And I agree that there is more equality under a Euro-style social democracy than in the U.S.</p>
<p>Regarding the Vanguard: I understand that it&#8217;s supposed to disappear, but I don&#8217;t see that happening. Do you have a good historical example of that or is it that we haven&#8217;t given socialism enough time to get there?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Appropriating More than Man has a Right To Own by Jason Steed</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/04/29/appropriating-more-than-man-has-a-right-to-own/comment-page-1/#comment-3956</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Steed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=173#comment-3956</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think money is the problem. I think money makes trade more practical and efficient. It does enable accumulation -- but it doesn&#039;t necessitate it. And it also enables savings (different from accumulation), and that&#039;s a good thing.

I have no problem with a monetary system -- a fungible commodity for easier exchange of goods.

And again, I think you&#039;re setting up a bit of a false dilemma between capitalist-fascism and totalitarian-socialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think money is the problem. I think money makes trade more practical and efficient. It does enable accumulation &#8212; but it doesn&#8217;t necessitate it. And it also enables savings (different from accumulation), and that&#8217;s a good thing.</p>
<p>I have no problem with a monetary system &#8212; a fungible commodity for easier exchange of goods.</p>
<p>And again, I think you&#8217;re setting up a bit of a false dilemma between capitalist-fascism and totalitarian-socialism.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Purpose and &#8220;Bound&#8221; to Property by Jason Steed</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/04/03/the-purpose-and-bound-to-property/comment-page-1/#comment-3954</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Steed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=133#comment-3954</guid>
		<description>But neither Marx nor myself is talking about putting &quot;someone else&quot; in charge. Lenin focused on centralization only as a means for accomplishing the revolution -- he would&#039;ve moved away from that afterward. But then Stalin took over, and Stalin was a despot who made centralized power a defining characteristic of totalitarian Communism.

Marx (and I) would have the collective be in charge -- real democracy (with some safeguards against too much majoritarian dominance over minorities). No &quot;someone else&quot; in charge, but &quot;everyone else&quot; in charge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But neither Marx nor myself is talking about putting &#8220;someone else&#8221; in charge. Lenin focused on centralization only as a means for accomplishing the revolution &#8212; he would&#8217;ve moved away from that afterward. But then Stalin took over, and Stalin was a despot who made centralized power a defining characteristic of totalitarian Communism.</p>
<p>Marx (and I) would have the collective be in charge &#8212; real democracy (with some safeguards against too much majoritarian dominance over minorities). No &#8220;someone else&#8221; in charge, but &#8220;everyone else&#8221; in charge.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Property and Economics: The Foundation of Politics by Jason Steed</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/03/31/property-and-economics-the-foundation-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-3949</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Steed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=117#comment-3949</guid>
		<description>I agree with your last paragraph -- we&#039;re close on things. But I question your prioritization of &quot;freedom&quot; over equality, because I question what that &quot;freedom&quot; is FOR that you&#039;re intent on prioritizing. I don&#039;t see how the freedom to do harmful things should take priority over pursuit of equality. Freedom is hugely important, obviously -- and I would put the freedom to do good above equality, in priorities. But I can&#039;t justify putting the freedom to harm above equality. Libertarians (at least right-libertarians, or individualist-libertarians) want to do that, and that&#039;s where they lose me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your last paragraph &#8212; we&#8217;re close on things. But I question your prioritization of &#8220;freedom&#8221; over equality, because I question what that &#8220;freedom&#8221; is FOR that you&#8217;re intent on prioritizing. I don&#8217;t see how the freedom to do harmful things should take priority over pursuit of equality. Freedom is hugely important, obviously &#8212; and I would put the freedom to do good above equality, in priorities. But I can&#8217;t justify putting the freedom to harm above equality. Libertarians (at least right-libertarians, or individualist-libertarians) want to do that, and that&#8217;s where they lose me.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Property: To What Extent? by Jason Steed</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/03/19/property-to-what-extent/comment-page-1/#comment-3948</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Steed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=87#comment-3948</guid>
		<description>1. I don&#039;t really believe in &quot;natural law.&quot; Unless you&#039;re defining it in a way different from how I define it.

2. I don&#039;t agree that inequality is necessarily worse under something like state-run socialism than it is under capitalism. In fact, I think equality tends to be much better in Euro-style social democracies than it is in the U.S.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. I don&#8217;t really believe in &#8220;natural law.&#8221; Unless you&#8217;re defining it in a way different from how I define it.</p>
<p>2. I don&#8217;t agree that inequality is necessarily worse under something like state-run socialism than it is under capitalism. In fact, I think equality tends to be much better in Euro-style social democracies than it is in the U.S.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Purpose and &#8220;Bound&#8221; to Property by mike</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/04/03/the-purpose-and-bound-to-property/comment-page-1/#comment-3927</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 05:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=133#comment-3927</guid>
		<description>I like what you&#039;ve said at the end, but it&#039;s as much an idealized version of Marx as my argument is of Locke&#039;s. If the individuals in the society don&#039;t control their own usage of the property, someone else does. And that someone else has the power and the control of the economy, making it even more unequal. If the philosopher kings can all be like Plato sees them, great. But it doesn&#039;t happen that way. You have Lenins and Stalins and Maos come along who pervert the purity for selfish reasons and the system fails and the abuses are staggering. Better for me to attempt to point out to believing individuals the inconsistencies between their beliefs and their actions than to resort to an imposed civil structure that allows for rapid and exploitative accumulation of power.

Again, between us it&#039;s a matter of emphasis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like what you&#8217;ve said at the end, but it&#8217;s as much an idealized version of Marx as my argument is of Locke&#8217;s. If the individuals in the society don&#8217;t control their own usage of the property, someone else does. And that someone else has the power and the control of the economy, making it even more unequal. If the philosopher kings can all be like Plato sees them, great. But it doesn&#8217;t happen that way. You have Lenins and Stalins and Maos come along who pervert the purity for selfish reasons and the system fails and the abuses are staggering. Better for me to attempt to point out to believing individuals the inconsistencies between their beliefs and their actions than to resort to an imposed civil structure that allows for rapid and exploitative accumulation of power.</p>
<p>Again, between us it&#8217;s a matter of emphasis.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Property: To What Extent? by mike</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/03/19/property-to-what-extent/comment-page-1/#comment-3926</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 05:20:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=87#comment-3926</guid>
		<description>How much of the natural law do we want to turn into civil law? I think that human nature responds best to love and freedom, not external force (which is what civil law is). I agree that we can&#039;t resort to a &quot;first come&quot;, &quot;might makes right&quot; method to property distribution. However, concentration of control of property into the hands of a Vanguard makes me even more uncomfortable. Is there a way to check the Vanguard and make sure that it doesn&#039;t exploit the people? 

Hence, I am working to help individuals with the same religious ethos as I have to see property as a gift from God, to be used as Locke states. Have his words been twisted by those who would use them for their benefit? Absolutely, as were Marx&#039;s words. Thus we have to take Locke at his word and promote the concepts that individual Christians must limit their property to those limits stated by him (both Locke and Christ...and Isaiah and many others). Otherwise our options are profound inequality (under capitalism) or profounder inequality (under a Vanguard).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How much of the natural law do we want to turn into civil law? I think that human nature responds best to love and freedom, not external force (which is what civil law is). I agree that we can&#8217;t resort to a &#8220;first come&#8221;, &#8220;might makes right&#8221; method to property distribution. However, concentration of control of property into the hands of a Vanguard makes me even more uncomfortable. Is there a way to check the Vanguard and make sure that it doesn&#8217;t exploit the people? </p>
<p>Hence, I am working to help individuals with the same religious ethos as I have to see property as a gift from God, to be used as Locke states. Have his words been twisted by those who would use them for their benefit? Absolutely, as were Marx&#8217;s words. Thus we have to take Locke at his word and promote the concepts that individual Christians must limit their property to those limits stated by him (both Locke and Christ&#8230;and Isaiah and many others). Otherwise our options are profound inequality (under capitalism) or profounder inequality (under a Vanguard).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Property and Economics: The Foundation of Politics by mike</title>
		<link>http://www.theidealist.us/2009/03/31/property-and-economics-the-foundation-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-3925</link>
		<dc:creator>mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 05:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theidealist.us/?p=117#comment-3925</guid>
		<description>Jason,

Your last paragraph hits it relatively closely. The potential for grabbing economic power that exists because the way property exists in the Western world is what makes me concerned for the authoritarian constructs winning out. That said, I think that the U.S. is actually closer to corporatistic authoritarianism than totalitarian socialism (although to listen to anything Right of NPR would have us believing otherwise).

However, I see this as a slowly creeping process that needs to be checked soon or we will be too far along the road to reverse any of the power grab from the sovereign people. I just see us giving up more and more of our natural rights of freedom for more and more civil rights for security. Europe is doing it in a more socialistic fashion and the U.S. is doing it in a more corporistic fashion, but it is happening in both places.

I think that you and I see things very similarly but with different emphasis: I want to protect freedom first and foremost, and you seem to want to protect equality and social justice first and foremost. All of those things we want are critical components of Christianity. Is there a way to have the optimum of all without having the increase the power of the governance to a degree that it negates one? That&#039;s what I&#039;m trying to ask.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>Your last paragraph hits it relatively closely. The potential for grabbing economic power that exists because the way property exists in the Western world is what makes me concerned for the authoritarian constructs winning out. That said, I think that the U.S. is actually closer to corporatistic authoritarianism than totalitarian socialism (although to listen to anything Right of NPR would have us believing otherwise).</p>
<p>However, I see this as a slowly creeping process that needs to be checked soon or we will be too far along the road to reverse any of the power grab from the sovereign people. I just see us giving up more and more of our natural rights of freedom for more and more civil rights for security. Europe is doing it in a more socialistic fashion and the U.S. is doing it in a more corporistic fashion, but it is happening in both places.</p>
<p>I think that you and I see things very similarly but with different emphasis: I want to protect freedom first and foremost, and you seem to want to protect equality and social justice first and foremost. All of those things we want are critical components of Christianity. Is there a way to have the optimum of all without having the increase the power of the governance to a degree that it negates one? That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m trying to ask.</p>
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